dApp staking rewards changes

@FFR23 Making proposals such as yours, with no analysis, just throwing out ideas doesn’t really give you the basis call out something out as “clearly”, “lazy”, etc.

I literally replied to your comment when you first originally posted (linked below)

This topic I created has actually generated some really good ideas from intelligent users in the community and I really hope/ this has given food for thought to you / other intelligent community members / projects building on Astar / and the rest of the core team to brainstorm and come up with a solution.

In the case you again don’t read what I linked before, TL;DR: dApp staking isn’t supposed to be the sole source of income for the users, these are ‘rewards’.

Can we just scrap dApp staking and copy Moonbeams grant procedure?

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@Marroz your topic is removed! Please follow the community guidelines.
Your topic had nothing to do with this topic, accept to critize Astar with no clear direction in your reply. See this as your first warning

If you don’t know our guidelines, please read here:

We see a pattern in this kind of reply with people banned before. Coming from a same team or supporters that prefer to fud.

@FFR23 your post is modified because not following our Rules of Engagement: Astar Collective - Rules of Engagement

Please adjust your tone and communication.
Your reponse is creating a Negative or Toxic Environment without clear solutions in your response accept critize Astar direction.

See this as a first warning. Other consequence can be seen in the rules of engagement.

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@FFR23 What exactly is the proposal you want to put to a vote?

Keep in mind that if you’re planning an onchain referendum, it must include a runtime upgrade with a code change to take effect on the chain, such as modifying dApp Staking parameters.

If the vote is more of a general request for changes, as we see on Polkadot, this can be done through:

  • A poll on the forum,
  • An off-chain vote at the Astar Townhall, or
  • A system remark on Subsquare.

However, these methods won’t automatically result in a code modification.

If your proposal doesn’t fit any of these options, there’s little point in calling for a vote, as it won’t lead to actionable changes. That said, you’re always welcome to provide feedback on the forum about what you think would improve the system.

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Hey @tora0515!

I see the issue you talk about. And agree this is a huge problem for new teams to not have enough funds from start to build on. As from people I interacted with outside of Astar ecosystem that hold ASTR since Crowdloan, most stake to Neurolauncher due to extra airdrop. I think most care only about teams that offer extra rewards. Not to blame them as life is not easy, my experience is still 99% people in crypto only in for money and not caring about governance at all. I have the same experience in all DAOs I participate. Lack of validators is felt in DAO governances.

Because of those reasons I think solution should be searched not in a way to involve a broader ommunity to dig deeper( imho this is really hard to do or maybe my brain doesn’t have enough RAM which is also very possible) but some kind of solution to be reached based on dApps development.

Perhaps new teams can offer something like OG role to their first stakers which could have benefits in the future( airdrops, NFts…) If then their goals are reached higher Tiers should cover costs.

Or only Tier 1 and Tier 2 be set for now that not many active and good dApps developing. Once Soneium dApp join staking. This can be changed to 3 Tiers. I think 4 Tiers are too many… To attract developers funds should be available, but dApps need to keep performing and reach goals to deserve them.

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Below is an AI-generated summary of the current state of the debate.

1. Current Issues with dApp Staking

  • Ineffectiveness of Tier 4: The current Tier 4 rewards are perceived as non-existent, with no projects qualifying for Tier 1.

    • Support: Several community members express frustration over the lack of projects qualifying for Tier 1, highlighting that Tier 4 rewards are essentially non-existent.
    • Opposition: Some argue that the tier system is necessary for maintaining a structured reward distribution, even if it currently seems ineffective.
  • Complexity and Time Consumption: Participants find the farming process tedious, with many daily tasks required for minimal rewards.

    • Support: Many participants share their experiences of the tedious nature of the farming process, noting that the numerous daily tasks are burdensome.
    • Opposition: A few members suggest that the complexity is part of the challenge and can lead to greater rewards for those who are committed.

2. Proposed Changes to Reward Structure

  • Simplified Tier System:
    Combine Tiers: Proposals suggest merging Tier 1 and Tier 2 into a single tier that would receive the current Tier 1 rewards. This aims to streamline the reward structure and make it more accessible.

  • New Tier 1: This tier would include the combined rewards of the current Tier 1 and Tier 2.

  • New Tier 2: This tier would receive the current Tier 2 rewards.

  • New Tier 3: This tier would receive the current Tier 3 rewards.

  • New Tier 4: This tier would be adjusted to receive the current Tier 4 rewards, ensuring that there is still a pathway for lower-performing dApps to receive some compensation.

    • Support: Proposals to merge Tier 1 and Tier 2 into a single tier are backed by several community members who believe this will streamline the process and make it more accessible.
    • Opposition: Some argue that combining tiers could dilute the rewards for higher-performing dApps and discourage competition.
  • Dynamic Rewards Based on Total Value Locked (TVL):
    Proportional Distribution: Future rewards for registered dApps will depend on their Total Value Locked (TVL). For example, if a dApp represents 10% of the total TVL, it would receive 10% of the inflation allocated for dApp rewards. This aims to ensure that rewards are proportional to the dApp’s stake in the ecosystem.

    • Support: Many participants advocate for a proportional distribution of rewards based on TVL, believing it will create a fairer system that rewards active participation.
    • Opposition: A few members express concern that this approach may disadvantage newer or smaller projects that have not yet built up significant TVL.
  • Incentives for Participation:
    Encouragement for Projects: There is a call to encourage projects to offer additional incentives to participants, which could help to attract more users and increase engagement.

    • Support: There is a strong call from various community members to encourage projects to offer additional incentives, which could help attract more users.
    • Opposition: Some feel that the responsibility for providing incentives should not fall solely on the projects, as Astar and Soneium organized the campaign.
  • Utilization of Unclaimed Rewards:
    Addressing Unclaimed Rewards: Discussion on how to effectively utilize unclaimed rewards from previous dApp staking systems, which currently hold significant amounts of ASTR. This could involve redistributing these rewards to active participants or using them to fund future initiatives.

    • Support: Many participants suggest that unclaimed rewards should be redistributed to active participants or used to fund future initiatives, seeing this as a way to enhance community engagement.
    • Opposition: A few members caution against redistributing unclaimed rewards, arguing that it could set a precedent that undermines the original intent of the reward system.

3. Incentives and Responsibilities

  • Shifting Responsibility: Concerns are raised about the perception of shifting responsibility onto other projects for providing incentives, while it is Astar and Soneium who organized the campaign and its rewards system.
    • Support: Several community members express concern that the current discussions seem to shift responsibility away from Astar and Soneium, emphasizing that they should take accountability for the rewards system.
    • Opposition: Some argue that it is reasonable to expect projects to contribute to the incentive structure, as they are also stakeholders in the ecosystem.

4. Community Feedback and Participation

  • Community Sentiment:

    • Support: Many community members voice their frustrations regarding the perceived unfairness of the rewards system and the lack of adequate compensation for their time and effort.
    • Opposition: A few participants believe that the system is fair and that rewards are based on merit, suggesting that complaints may stem from unrealistic expectations.
  • Call for Transparency:

    • Support: There is a strong demand for clearer communication regarding the reward mechanisms and the rationale behind changes from various community members.
    • Opposition: Some argue that too much transparency could lead to confusion and that a certain level of discretion is necessary for effective governance.

5. Future Considerations

  • Balancing Rewards:

    • Support: Many participants suggest that balancing rewards for lower tiers is essential to keep the system attractive for all participants.
    • Opposition: A few members believe that focusing too much on lower tiers could undermine the incentives for higher-performing dApps.
  • Feedback Mechanism:

    • Support: There is a consensus on the importance of community feedback in shaping the future of dApp staking and reward distribution, with many advocating for regular surveys or discussions.
    • Opposition: Some express skepticism about the effectiveness of feedback mechanisms, arguing that they may not lead to meaningful changes.

What exactly is the proposal you want to put to a vote?

The reason I mentioned community vote is because the core team are the only ones who don’t want to change the current dApp system. Projects are afraid to speak out in fear of being blacklisted. Community and builders are voicing their frustrations but the core team are saying the system is working as intended. I have not seen 1 positive comment from anyone in regards dApp staking since the 4 tiers have been introduced, in fact we have lost projects (and will continue to lose more) as a result.

Anyway, to summarize my proposal while including feedback from other users in this thread

Tier 4 has the same staking threshold but get’s tier 3 rewards
Tier 3 has the same staking threshold but get’s tier 2 rewards
Tier 2 has the same staking threshold but get’s tier 1 rewards.

Scrap the existing tier 1 (so we now have a new 3 tier system).

Additional:
Allow projects to move between tiers if they show outstanding progress and have shown full transparency, kept up to date with their reporting and answered all questions and concerns in this forum sufficiently (maybe they have to pass a gov vote to move between tiers based on this).

Existing situation analysis:
Look at the movement of dApps between current tiers - there is NO MOVEMENT.
Sure, stakers losing their bonus is a factor but even during the Build and Earn period it’s the same projects just being re-staked on.

This is leading to stagnation, and as others have mentioned, new projects can’t get a foothold in here.

We have the community council members to do a clear out of the current low value projects for dApp staking.

Now my ask to the core team - please scrutinize my proposal and tell me why it won’t work. What is wrong with this idea?

I think we are safe from AI for a while. lol.

XD
I think that it did a pretty decent job summarizing all thoses posts ^^

The reason I mentioned community vote is because the core team are the only ones who don’t want to change the current dApp system. Projects are afraid to speak out in fear of being blacklisted. Community and builders are voicing their frustrations but the core team are saying the system is working as intended. I have not seen 1 positive comment from anyone in regards dApp staking since the 4 tiers have been introduced, in fact we have lost projects (and will continue to lose more) as a result.

I could argue the opposite, as I’ve seen only a handful of users (mostly from the same community) consistently voicing complaints about dApp Staking. Does this mean their views represent the opinions of the 7,000 stakers? I don’t think so.

That said, no one can be forced to implement changes on a blockchain. If the core team doesn’t agree with your proposed modifications to dApp Staking, they’re under no obligation to apply them. Blockchain is open by nature, and Astar’s code is open-source. Anyone is free to contribute on GitHub or propose a runtime upgrade if they want to see changes implemented. If the core team declines, the tools are available for others to take action.

Regarding your proposal to modify the tier system, I don’t fundamentally oppose the idea, and changes to the tiers could be technically feasible. However, I’m not convinced it would solve the issue. Reverting to dApp Staking V2 would bring back the same problem we previously faced: a few dApps monopolizing all the staked tokens. At least with V3, tokens are more evenly distributed across projects, as evidenced by how they move between tiers from one period to the next.

Additional:
Allow projects to move between tiers if they show outstanding progress and have shown full transparency, kept up to date with their reporting and answered all questions and concerns in this forum sufficiently (maybe they have to pass a gov vote to move between tiers based on this).

This suggestion raises more questions than it answers. Introducing off-chain and subjective criteria would fundamentally change the tier system, which currently operates purely on on-chain metrics (e.g., tokens staked on a contract).

Would you propose forcing a project to change tiers based on a governance vote? This would create an inconsistency, as projects would then be evaluated using two entirely different sets of criteria—one based on objective on-chain metrics and the other relying on subjective decisions.

If you can elaborate on how this system would work, I’d be happy to provide a technical assessment. However, at the moment, this idea introduces more complexity than solutions.

To directly address your question:

  • Removing Tier 1 and modifying the tier system: This is technically possible but would have economic consequences for the chain. More tokens would be distributed to dApps, leading to higher inflation and potentially greater selling pressure. Such changes would require careful analysis.
  • Additional suggestion (tier movement based on governance votes): This idea is too vague to assess its technical feasibility. More clarity is needed to determine how it would function within the existing system.

If the core team declines, the tools are available for others to take action.

While this is true, it’s not realistic in the slightest for anyone to be doing this

Reverting to dApp Staking V2 would bring back the same problem we previously faced: a few dApps monopolizing all the staked tokens. At least with V3, tokens are more evenly distributed across projects, as evidenced by how they move between tiers from one period to the next.

The issue now is that the dApps providing value and needing a reward to operate and develop aren’t getting any support.

I think every dApp currently receiving rewards needs to be scrutinized and delisted (if appropriate).

This analysis should massively decrease the number of dApps in tier 4 especially.

This suggestion raises more questions than it answers. Introducing off-chain and subjective criteria would fundamentally change the tier system, which currently operates purely on on-chain metrics (e.g., tokens staked on a contract).

I added this suggestion based off what another user in here suggested. I guess we can now discard this idea as not feasible.

However, maybe we can implement a performance and goal based grant similar to what Moobeam have if we don’t go down the route of adjusting dApp staking.

  • Removing Tier 1 and modifying the tier system: This is technically possible but would have economic consequences for the chain. More tokens would be distributed to dApps, leading to higher inflation and potentially greater selling pressure. Such changes would require careful analysis.

A: Newly elected council to clear out the dead dApps in tier 4 (I believe there are many here)
B: Change to 3 tier system
C: Increase the rewards for lowest tier without affecting inflation too much while still making it worthwhile for projects to operate and innovate.

I know inflation is a worry, but if the dApps recieving the rewards provide high value then this should be a worthwhile trade off?

We need to cull the deadweight - dApp staking was far too easy to get into successfully for low value projects. dApp staking should be difficult to get into so that we can make sure we are getting value for the dApp staking rewards projects recieve.

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Most of the comments & statements are misleading here, presenting themselves as solution for some distorted problem that even the author cannot probably define anymore.


High Value dApps

Saying there are high value dApps, but no dApp can get into tier 1.
What is a “high value” dApp?
Who decides this? A group of 6 people in the community council?
Or the token holders?

If high value dApps aren’t making it into tier 1 and earning high rewards, clearly token holders in the current system don’t have a clue what they’re doing (or using). Where are they staking those tokens? On “bad dApps”? If that was the case, then we’d have bad dApps in tiers higher than tier 4?


“Solution”

The only “problem” the proposed solution solves is that dApps will earn more while putting in the same or lesser effort.

That’s it. Nothing more, nothing less.
It won’t change the TVL (which is what’s good for the network as a whole).
Of if it changes it, it will be in the negative direction because of the increased issuance.

The easiest thing to do is modify the tier thresholds to be lower.
This can be done via governance, as an on-chain call.
However - it solves absolutely nothing, regardless of what the OP author claims.

All of what I’ve written so far I’ve explained in the linked post, which OP author has read but doesn’t seem to understand.


Scenario

Probably after posting this message, I will be labeled as “clearly wrong”, “oppressing developers who are afraid to speak”, “lazy”, etc. It will be clear to absolutely everyone that this is clearly and infallibly correct. :slightly_smiling_face:

So a thought experiment.

  • In a week time we reduce the thresholds, or combine tier1/2 into a single tier.
  • Some dApps get into this higher tier and start earning higher rewards.

What happens with the ecosystem then?
What concrete problem has been solved?
Let’s try and be “clear” in this regard.

Does the increased emission of ASTR allow the projects to flourish?
Is this all that was missing for the whole ecosystem to explode?
Will the oppressed & afraid dApp developers sigh in relief?

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Most of the comments & statements are misleading here, presenting themselves as solution for some distorted problem that even the author cannot probably define anymore.

I don’t understand what is misleading - i proposed a solution and asked you / the team / community to pick it apart and say why it won’t work - this is called brainstorming and I’m trying to generate ideas.

The problem statement has been defined many times by many teams - but let’s do a deep dive with case study examples

  1. Syfy Labs - had like 14.9 million Astar staked, .1% away from being able to fund their dApp with tier 3 rewards. Got essentially rugged - Moonbeam offered them a performance based grant and that is where they went
  2. Skylabs - were funded by a single entity / whale. They spent 50k USD with no tangable results…because they have been delisted they are on record stating that development will now be highly stalled and possibly the project is finished.
  3. Lotto dApp (developed by @GuiGou ) - this promising dApp currently receives the UCG to enable it to be in tier 3. They have made big developments on Wasm etc.
    Now what happens when UCG runs out? They will be stuck in tier 4… @GuiGou I would love to hear your feedback for the future of this dApp depending on if it is in tier 3 or 4.

@Dino - sometimes my message gets lost in translation and appears hostile - please note I am just trying to provide an extra dimension of information for you to think about. I get it - you and everyone on the core team is intelligent and top of the class in your field - but this is also a potential weakness as people in this position now think they know everything.

Systems are designed to be constantly refined in an iteratative process.

@Maarten - I am qouting you from the other thread created on this same topic. dApp staking was presented as the USP and flagship functionality for Astar and now it’s being quietly downgraded to just a tip. The goalposts have dramatically shifted.

How is a project expected to progress to tier 3 (on essentially no funding) from tier 4? This is a case of the rich get richer, and the poor stay poor.

Your comment on each project should have their own treasury is quite frankly out of touch with reality, with all due respect, i don’t know how else to word it.

I don’t think there is any dApp in tier 2 or 3 that could survive without this funding.

The projects in tier 4 are at the mercy of users and an unstable future - one day you’re in tier 3 and the next you’re in tier 4?

This is not sustainable when the rewards for tier 4 are so low.

Does the increased emission of ASTR allow the projects to flourish?
Is this all that was missing for the whole ecosystem to explode?
Will the oppressed & afraid dApp developers sigh in relief?

@Dino / wider Core Team - Regardless of your feelings towards an anonymous random poster on the internet (that happens to have an Astar bag and why i spend so much time trying to improve this highly flawed system) , this is highly disrespectful to projects stuck in tier 4 with an innovative product.

I urge you to send out surveys / question dApp owners / anonymous surveys / whatever to gather feedback straight from the developers.

If nothing changes, and this all falls on deaf ears, we at a minimum need to match Moonbeams performance based grant.

Edit - as i already stated , i mentioned putting this to governance originally because the community want change

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I don’t see that any question that I asked in my previous post has been answered.


dApp staking isn’t supposed to sustain projects, it’s intended as an additional reward. I’ve explained why this is the case in the old forum post linked before.

I’ll be the first one to admit I’ve made many mistakes with dApp staking both on the technical & on the design level (and have done it before on this very forum). I won’t endorse an idea that I see will only help dApps earn more without any other change. Couldn’t care less about populist moves.


My feelings towards you or anyone else are irrelevant. What matters is the problem definition & the ideas/solutions.

What is stopping you from making a referendum?
Use your bag of ASTR to create a proposal, endorse it with some ASTR and let’s get the referendum going this Saturday.

We can continue the discussion after it.
If it passes, it’s what the community wants.
If it fails, I assume it will be due to whales not wanting the change or something :joy:.

Anyways - since you’re passionate about this issue, make the proposal. NOTHING is stopping you.

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@Dino @Maarten

Can we get some feedback analysis from the core team on this post please?

Seems to have been skipped over, and @you425 deserves a response on this for taking the time to come up with a potential solution backed up with simulations

I have addressed it multiple times in my replies, and in the previous forum topics (some linked).

One example:

Any one-dimensional change which aims to lower thresholds, reduce slots, etc. only increases rewards for the same effort. It solves nothing.

I think it was on another thread, but I believe there was a response on this issue.
(The threads about dApp Staking have been so rampant lately that it’s hard to tell…)

The idea is that simply changing the parameters as I suggested may not be a fundamental solution to dApp Staking, so why not adjust the parameters after the new guidelines that the Community Council is currently working on are enacted.
I agree with this.

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As stated in another thread (ref), Astar Foundation is taking all comments and issues raised lately regarding dApp Staking further.

While we are filtering all community discussions and internal discussions, a new proposal will be opened on the forum to further enhance it. To keep all information in one place, the upcoming thread that will be created begin next week will serve as source-of-truth related to discussions.

This topic will be closed after the new one is created.
In the meantime this topic will stay open but further comments will not be taken in consideration to speed up the draft. I would recommend to wait untill the new thread is opened to express further concerns.

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Hey there

UCG Alumni, Astar dApp, dApp Staking participant and long time web3 founder and builder here. I’m writing to explore some practical ways to build on the already awesome dynamics of dAppStaking and to see if there are like-minded thinkers or if others in the community may share a similar sentiment.

There are a couple of aspects which could be discussed to make the Astar eco for builders more attractive, for both early stage and already running.

  1. Mitigate Selling Pressure: Explore ways to reduce sell pressure on ASTR, such as introducing stablecoin-based rewards or managed treasury funds to enhance price stability and reputation.
  2. Boost Community Engagement: Foster ideas that encourage deeper community involvement, emphasizing content creation and market adoption over purely monetary incentives.
  3. Expand Market Access: Leverage partnerships, like Soneium, with recommendations on paths towards fruitful partnerships to provide builders with affordable and strategic access to critical markets like SEA.
  4. Adjust Reward Dynamics: Reassess the gap between tiers to ensure equitable opportunities and optimize the system for both builders and the ecosystem.
  5. Simplify Tier Structures: Streamline the DS tier system by implementing a curve-based reward mechanism or merging tiers, making the system more intuitive and accessible for all builders.

If seriously interested in delivering something of value, a builder needs to find their way through various networks, programmes, accelerators, grants, prejudice, rug pulls, and beyond.

There is a high risk involved. Is the team right? Is the ecosystem right? Can I take the money? What can I even build with it? Where do I get more? How can I scale? Etc etc.

dApp Staking (DS) seems of course tempting, as people perceive it as “community conviction” in the best case, but also as “free funding”. DS currently provides a tier structure with a more or less dynamic reward pool. While this alone seems valuable, the initial assumptions for founders also are eventually:

A. Money plus community helps to build and grow

B. JP/KR/CN/SEA market is super attractive

C. Soneium provides a cool value add for Astar, becoming an eco with “growth pressure”

But

The general problem of a system like DS is that it creates sell pressure, which is unfortunate. People want to use their support for their project, so they sell ASTR off. This leads to what I call the “Monday dump” problem and continuous devaluation of a precious asset.

Price dynamics creates uncertainty for builders, one day the price is <0.5, the next day >0.7, this is too unstable for an already risky startup, so, again, people sell ASTR off to DCA.

Oh, the rewards are low, “ok, better than nothing”, let’s sell ASTR.

This psychology is unfortunate, other ecos have/had it as well, and tried to mitigate by establishing a tandem of a managed fund and issuing support in stables instead of their native asset. Like this the teams have a reliable source of income they can work with, the market dynamics are being managed by professionals, and ASTR is not dumped, ergo: more price stability, more reputation.

If not being managed, the price dynamics for tiers and rewards would need to compensate for the market dynamics, which even increases the depletion of the treasury.

Merging tiers like mentioned above improves the monetary attractiveness of the community fund but does not solve the selling pressure, meh.

And

Community engagement would even increase attractiveness, as community > funds, also in terms of building it. People can throw money but rarely throw people at stuff they are not attached to in a way, well, apart from conviction votes and rewards, which is also a dilemma, as the necessary factors for growth are less monetary, but mostly content and community backing related.

Why

Market and ecosystem access are super critical as a factor in the current state of web3. If you look at adoption, regulation and market growth, you could compare e.g. North America, Europe and SEA.

For most innovative projects from NA and EU/DACH it is super hard to access SEA, even though combining these markets may be quite effective, so apart from funding and the eventual community boost, a real opportunity: Astar + Soneium + advanced market + some funding…

Market access is hard and expensive. Even with funding: Community acceleration means more than spending, but the spending is also important enough to make it one of the reasons to come and stay and build.


Astar Stakeboard Prototype

My personal conclusion is, that at the current state I am not even sure if there is a need for tiers, this could also be covered by a curve rewarding the top 20 or 50 projects based on their total stake contribution. I would also suggest giving upper and lower bounds and definitely would raise the total amount.

This could drastically streamline and reduce the complexity, people will understand it potentially without a PhD, which is good.

The gap from Tier 1 even to Tier 2 is quite big, maybe I do not understand the top 2 projects sufficiently enough, but they appear to be contributing to the Astar dev team itself. If this is the case, I was wondering how the sell pressure on Astar would be managed to not cannibalise the store of value.

I think dAppStaking should and will continue to evolve, possibly some of these things may have been discussed internally already, thanks to OP for kicking off the conversation.

Cheers,
Marco

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Thanks for joining the conversation, I definitely value your point of view very much due to the fact that you are a founder of one of Astar’s most popular projects at the moment that is generating strong traction.

I understand the points you mention here and believe me I see them very related to what the ACS campaign seeks to do, I think we could be solving at least the problem of integrating and making the community more participatory.

Now, on the other hand, regarding the sales pressure you mention and the establishment of rewards in stablecoins to reduce fluctuations, could you elaborate more on your idea on this point? I want to understand how this would be accomplished since, ideally, I would like to continue to keep the $ASTR as the main fuel for the Astar ecosystem.

I definitely agree with you when you say that Astar dApp Staking should and will continue to evolve, the important thing is how we make it evolve along the right path.

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