dApps Staking v3 - proposal

[Dino]

No problem! Just wanted to get discussion back on the topic

@you425

The Tier reward calculation may still be good, but if you are going to reconfigure the Tier configuration, it would be best to reset the voting as well. Otherwise, if the slots were to be reduced if they were filled, we would be talking about what to do with the dApp tiers (in which case, I think the solution would be to lower the tier of the dApps with the lowest number of votes in that tier).

That’s not a problem, I think. The whole idea of the system is to be competitive.
There’s not unlimited amount of slots, and numbers change depending on how ASTR price changes. So one era a dApp might be in tier 2, and in another it might be in tier 3. It’s up to stakers to support & dApp to attract support to stay in tier 2.

The system will work like this anyways, technically it’s all the same whether we reset the votes or not.

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@you425

I now think the tier configuration thing is about the number of slots, tier thresholds, and amount of rewards. My apologies if I have misunderstood.

That’s exactly it!

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@you425

This is why I am raising it. I don’t think that is much different than talking about how often the hierarchical structure should be recalculated.

It’s not, but it’s more related to tier config, not tier assignment.

At the end of each era, dApps are assigned into tiers. Tier config defines what are the number of slots, rewards & thresholds per tier.

Right now, this tier config is recalculated once per 4 months, or 122 eras as you noted. And that’s way too slow. Especially if we consider how ASTR price has moved in the last 4 months.

I’ll work on solution proposal for this very soon, but right now my thoughts are going towards:

• recalculate tier config daily (beginning of a new era)
• ASTR price should be averaged (rolling average) over some time period to smoothen out the price spikes.
  • that way we prevent drastic changes in slot numbers from era to era

[you425]

Thank you for the details!
I may have made a fundamental mistake.

I thought that the Tier of the dApp would fluctuate based on the votes during the Voting period, but perhaps it also fluctuates based on the amount of Staking during the Build&Earn period?

If so, this suggestion makes a lot of sense.

[Dino]

Yes, it fluctuates constantly, tier assignment can change at any time.
A dApp that wasn’t even registered when Voting subperiod was active, can end up having the highest stake amount mid Build&Earn subperiod.

[you425]

Thank you, I understand the misunderstanding of the premise.

As you said, the Tier configuration should be taken for each new Era and the ASTR price should be taken from the average price over a period of time. If the Tier reconfiguration is a burden for us as a chain, then once every 7 days would be fine.

As for prices, given the volatility, it seems better to calculate the average over 30 days. 60 days would be more stable, but would not match the high volatility due to low tracking.

Blue: 30SMA
Yellow: 60SMA

[Dino]

Thanks for the suggestion!

I’ll model this with configurable params when I get to this task.

It’s definitely needed to see how both the averaged price & the number of slots/thresholds/rewards would move in respect to this price.

[SFY_Labs]

You killed the work of small teams with the tier system. It’s not meritocratic.
I hope someone can explain this to us: AGE OF CHRONOS : dApp Staking proposal - #47 by SFY_Labs

[SFY_Labs]

SFY Labs

[SFY_Labs]

Insight into the numbers:

SFY LABS earned around 500 Astars per ERA in dapp staking v2, had 60 stakers and 5.6m Astr in staking.

We worked hard day and night to increase our visibility in the system, remain an active dapp and grow, increased our unique stakers to 150, reaching 14.6 million astr. Today in V3 for each era we gain 66 astr.

Calculate the percentages yourself.

We believe we have a fairly large community of users, an evaluable background and innovative development ideas. We do not have an ambassador in our team, in which there are unfortunately no “known faces” from the ecosystem.
It almost seems that the status of Astar, which went from a promising project to a top 100 project visible to many, has led the team to definitively eliminate not only those who are not active (which is right), but all the dapps below a certain level of numbers. (deeply unfair)
Then we can discuss this too, there would be a lot to say about many dapps currently present in dapp staking. but we stop here.
It is also thanks to the many developers like us that astar has grown in the last year, today it seems to have no importance, indeed to be a burden, for an ecosystem that clearly aims to open up to the ethereum world but in the wrongest way possible in our opinion.

A truly large team will not need dapp staking to proceed with its development, but will submit its application anyway, as it costs nothing. In the meantime this will take away space and destroy the work of smaller teams that relied on dapp staking to at least pay for a small portion of their development.

What do you think will happen in the next few months if the percentages are these? that tier 4 will be populated with inactive projects, or without any real development value, while in all the others there will be non-cooperation between teams, indeed this system will exacerbate the community and will promote the creation of incorrect practices.

[SimonB]

Hello guys, I follow from the beginning the AOC works and they are one of the teams that worked more for their project and for the stakers in the same time…I’m sad to see that with the advent of the new V3 staking they are dissatisfied and I believe that this could be a constructive feedback to understand how to better calibrate the tier system in order to support even the smallest projects.
I believe that the ecosystem certainly needs large projects and therefore it is necessary to give good returns to the highest tiers, but a well-structured and healthy ecosystem must also take into account the importance of smaller and growing projects that could become something great if supported properly.
I believe that dApp staking is a fantastic system and it would be a revolution on the Web 3 world, we are at the beginning and surely time will lead to fixing things and creating a system that makes everyone happy, from the smallest to the largest projects and that motivates the little ones to commit and invest to reach higher levels and grow their dApp

[SFY_Labs]

thank you Simon…
As developers, this dapp staking system was what made us lean towards building on astar. We have made plans and created our own tokenomics on this, being able to be supported by our ever-present community. Today all this doesn’t matter, those who created the Tiers perhaps forget that Astar is what it is today also thanks to the work of teams like ours. We have never requested funds or loans. Technically a project could have only 1 astar missing to avoid entering a tier and seeing its earnings reduced by 12.5 times… And all the work done in recent months? and everything we have done to increase our user base? what purpose did it serve?

Then if you want we can also talk about the quality of the dapps present.
There we will probably open Pandora’s box.
We are very angry and saddened by this situation.

[SimonB]

you are a very serious dapp who has always worked very well.
Certainly the team knows how important it is to have a thriving ecosystem of large and small Dapps that build and operate in the network and therefore I believe that a solution can be found. Within the parameters of the tier selection, something relating to the quality of the project and the results it is achieving should also be included.
I am convinced that as I said before, we are at the beginning of a great staking system and like any great project, in an initial phase we need to set the gears well and listen to all the feedback from users and developers to improve ourselves more every day

[automaticprophit]

i agree, there needs to be some tweaks/updates that needs to happen to supplement rewards for dapps. I would vote in favor of any meaningful dapp that couldnt make it to higher tier to get supplimented from one of the un occupied slot(may be atleast proportional to the increase in staked astr) in case of sfy labs i would say atleast 2.8x of thier v2 rewards since they were able to increase staked astr by that amount.

Good for long term dapp development. Team should really give it a thought. Use one of the burned t1 spot rewards to supplement these dapps.

[SFY_Labs]

we report what a community member wrote to us on Astar Discord:

Strict hard line tiers with no accounting for the amount of stake make no sense.

How do these 3 results seem fair?

Lucky: 15.2M ASTR staked = 830 ASTR reward

Age of Chronos: 14.6M ASTR staked = 66 ASTR reward

apeXchimpz: 7.6M ASTR staked = 66 ASTR reward

Any logic in this?

[automaticprophit]

i would say just abolish T4 all together, 66 reward is just not worth any dapps to put any effort tbh. Just reducing the slot for T1 from 10 to 9 and use those rewards will add 6 additional spots in T3.

[VD545]

I feel there is a need to make sure DAPPs in lower tiers get at-least a minimum amount of ASTR especially those that are actively building atleast for a few more cycles so teams can think of ways to get more votes / Stakes

Also I think DAPPs should think of innovative ways to attract users. If that means launching own token and incentivising users, we should do that. Especially with ZKEVM since it becomes easier to attract L2 crowds

[you425]

Indeed, the rewards for dApps were greatly reduced in v3.

One of the goals of v3 is to improve the fairness of the rewards obtained, and we have updated the following points

• Resetting the Stake to reduce the advantage for old dApps and increase opportunities for new dApps.
• Establish a cap on the distribution of rewards through a tier system to equalize the rewards to some extent.

Currently, the distribution by the tier system may not create fairness, but rather an unfair disparity. For example, in the v2 situation, if you can collect 1.5M ASTR (Tier 4 threshold), you will be rewarded 135 ASTR.
(From here on out, the numbers may differ slightly from the front end as I am writing this based on a spreadsheet I created. Please understand)

However, the current Tier 4 has half the 66 ASTR.

Depending on one’s perspective, some may feel uncomfortable with the reduced compensation for Tier 4 if the goal is to balance out the too high compensation for some dApps. Although the rewards are reduced more than that at higher Tiers, Tier 4 may be too little when considered as “basic income for running a project”.

Therefore, we have some suggestions to rectify this situation.

1. Reduce slots and change the Reward Distribution

Slot
number_of_slots=floor(1000∗ASTR USD +50) → number_of_slots=floor(900∗ASTR USD +50)

Reward Distribution
Tier1: 25% → 24%
Tier2: 47% → 45%
Tier3: 25% → 25%
Tier4: 3% → 6%

2. Increase Tier and change Slot Portions and Reward Distribution (add between Tier 3 and 4).

Slot Portions
Tier1: 3%
Tier2: 15%
Tier3: 20%
Tier4: 25%
Tier5: 37%

Reward Distribution
Tier1: 16%
Tier2: 37%
Tier3: 28%
Tier4: 13%
Tier5: 6%

Threshold
Tier1: 200M - 300M
Tier2: 50M - 75M
Tier3: 15M - 20M
Tier4: 4.5M - 6M
Tier5: 1.5M

In these two proposals, the amount of reward is adjusted so that when you get a Tier 4 (5) threshold TVL, the amount of reward is similar to what it was in v2. Personally, I think proposal 2 (adding a Tier) is more balanced. The current 10x difference between Tier 4 and Tier 3 thresholds seems too high a hurdle.

However, we must remember that this proposal will reduce the amount of burn compared to the current v3 parameters, which will lower the effect of the proposal on inflation. In other words, it is better for the holder to leave things as they are now. However, we must also remember that Astar’s dApp Staking is intended to attract and support dApps developers (but without excessive rewards). A balance must be struck.

I would like constructive input from both developers and the community.

[naoyo4]

$SDN,$ASTR Infration rate changed below( by subscan.io )

Initial Supply : 70M $SDN, 7.0B $ASTR

Inflation rate to Total Supply:

2022/02/01 8.27%($SDN), 9.77%($ASTR)
2023/02/01 8.80%, 8.43%
2023/12/31 4.22%, 5.90% after Hybrid Inflation
2024/02/20 0.81%, 0.56% after dAppStakingV3

[automaticprophit]

Thank You for the proposal @you425

Is there need for T5? following is what i propose for T3-T4-T5

Threshold
T3:10M (lots of interesting dapps are above this level but below 15M)
T4: anything less than 10M

Reward Distribution
T3 can remain at current levels of 830-1000 ASTR( increase the number of slots)
T4 rewards can stay at minimum of 161 ASTR

My understanding is T3 is where majority of the dapps will fall that are active but for one reason or the other either arent mature enough or could attract enough stakers, and thus need 1-2 cycles to be more attractive. T3 should be have maximum number of slots imo. In the end the burn rate will not change much if we get rid of T5.

[SFY_Labs]

A dapps with 14.9million and one with 7 can’t have the same rewards.
A dapps with 0.1 more can’t earn x12.5 more or with new proposal X5 more.
This is absurde.
you are encouraging games on the tiers… the dapps will only do that instead of fossilizing on development… there will be dapps that will do better just because they do marketing and incorrect actions. the logic of dapps staking is development support…maybe this escapes you. for us it was not necessary to ask Astar for Grant until a few months ago… today however we can no longer develop anything if these are the figures. We can easily define dapps staking as: stake and tip the dapps. maybe you don’t follow us because you have nothing to develop and you don’t understand how difficult it is to lead a real team, I don’t know otherwise why I only have to explain these things. but this also applies to many serious projects. we have tripled our numbers. we earn 10 times less. I don’t even know what proportion it is, but it’s something unreal.

[SFY_Labs]

We do VD.

Age of Chronos: #DappStaking V3

We have tripled our numbers. Create rewards ad each era and period. Create also a token. We do all you have write. And after this we have the same importance of who doing nothing. For few astar.
This model is not good enough.