DApp Staking 2.0

Shiden Network (Kusama) Proposal
22

Both proposals looks good.

1 Like
23

Amazing! I support both to start with.

Option 1: The younger project could have vesting period that they could withdraw some of it to keep the project going.
Option 2: will definitely attract users and maybe think of having unbonding period for the next phase.
ā€œthe longer you stake the more rewards you can getā€ scheme and starting ratio with 10:40 could help sustaining the ecosystem. but that is probably for also the next phase.

24

Actually this is a very interesting method but can be too advance at this early stage. When Shiden is matured and dapp store listing is permissionless, this method is surely a good one.

1.Developers add their contract to the dapp store but need to go through the crowdloan.

  1. They need to do their own marketing, get their community members & users to lock SDN as a security deposit to get them listed to the dapp store.

  2. The crowdloan may need some criteria like:

  • One slot per week (hence creating competition)
  • Minimum 100k or any X amount of SDN is required to win a slot. Therefore even if there is no competition, one dapp is still required to lock at least 100k SDN. They can self-fund, why not.
  • All the locked SDN will be locked for X amount of time. It can be 6 - 12 month. Depending on the length of lease that they want.
  • The locked SDN cannot earn dapp staking rewards. The same way locking DOT on a crowdloan does not give you staking rewards.
  • But on the other hand, dapp developers can reward their crowdloaners with their project tokens.
  • If they succeed, they get listed on the dapp store and start earning rewards.
  • At the end of the lease, they will have to repeat the process again. If they have previously done well, I am sure previous crowdloaners would want to support them again.
4 Likes
25

Thanks for follow up.
I agree to 1,2. For 3, I would like to brush up on this idea.

A new question arises

  • Dapps store list may need to be capped
  • Itā€™s supposed to help developers, but it requires initial funding
  • I like the lease idea. We can measure performance by repeating the process
  • Project tokens seem to have a lot of potential. Is it like sdn in kusama?

Since weā€™re getting off the main topic of discussion, maybe we can have a separate session.

And I may be ignoring feasibility and development costs. Unfortunately, I canā€™t move my hands, so I canā€™t be responsible for them. If ok with brainstorming

26

Two very nice solutions but we can talk to Dapps developer about Kickback rewards excluding SDN where native tokens, nft or something special so the nominee can participate get the best benefits.
Dapps Staking is the place where the nominator interacts with the Shiden project and the Dapp project, so if it only gets a one-sided reward from Shiden, it wonā€™t make many people interested to stake.

1 Like
28

Hello Sota,
This is my first contribution to a crypto project ever. Please excuse my english, I am french.

I have the same point of view than you regarding the dapp staking: it is a wonderful idea but in its current state it is not efficient, hence it should be improved.
However i do not think that the solution you have proposed will resolve it. Let me explain why:

First, my vision is that the SDN tokens is a right to vote for Dapps, when i want those dapps to be remunerated because they are useful for the community. The dapp staking should not be a way to maximize staking profits! Unfortunately, people are staking (and will always do) their SDN to dapps with the more of incentives/rewards, not to dapps with the more of utility!
My second point is that you will not be able to avoid useless/fake/not finalized dapps to go to the dapp store.

Consequently, i suggest that:

  • in order to remove the freerider issue, you should forbid dapps to give back rewards/tokens (sdn, nft, or any tokens) to people that are dapp staking. The consequence will be that people will only stake their SDN for dapps which are really useful, or which will be really useful (pre-launch issue is solved). On the contrary, dapps with no use, or no serious roadmap will not attract SDN staking.
  • on the other side, with so little number of dapps, you should invert the staking rewards: 40% for dapp stakers, and 10% for dapp developpers. This ratio should be modified according to the use of the shiden network. You should define a mathematic formula. Of course when the shiden network will have a lot of transactions (number to be defined by the team), the final ratio of reward should be 40% for dapp dev and 10% for dapp stakers.
  • Last but not the least, for a long term vision, you should limit the dapp staking to 3 months. Then people should have to elect/choose again dapps for staking their SDN every 3 months. It will permit to new useful/relevant dapps to get some rewards. Iā€™m saying that because if not, people will let their SDN forever to the same dapp since the rewards will be the same.

One last thing: i think that bLabs, commmunity, any infrastructure that is not a Daap should not be considered as dapp, hence should not be into the dapp store. The treasury should be in charge to reward them. It is the role and responsibility of treasury to support shiden network infrastructure. It is not fair for dapps to have them into the dapp store.

I hope my point of view will be useful for you.
If yes, do not hesitate to contact me.
Best regards
Rod

4 Likes
29

Also, consider having a Dapp Leaderboard where the top dapps get more block rewards than lower-ranked ones. Leaderboard can use metrics such as TVL, volume, daily transactions, daily users, etc.

6 Likes
30

This idea is very interesting, could you please elaborate a little or provide examples of a leaderboard you think about?
Thanks!

1 Like
31

I agree with both of the points, together with @Rod 's post (except the part where he talks about switching the 40:10 ratio). So to sum this up

  • yes, letā€™s change the ratio to 25:25
  • letā€™s make a dApp staking (and listing) subject to the council and governance, that should be one of the priorities from day 1
  • it makes sense to limit dApp staking for some time (1-3 months). Then it would be nice to re-evaluate how the funds are used and if the project is really delivering
  • make distribution of rewards fairer. Ideally, rewards for users should be moreless the same regardless on which project are you staking with
1 Like
32

What about making the amount configurable by dApp creator? Some might want to chase whales, while others small fish.

33

Reward unlock could be vote-able by stakers.
Ie. letā€™s say the team claim that checkpoint is reached, some countdown starts (ie. week) and stakers can vote to not unlock the reward, if it turns out the checkpoint wasnā€™t achieved.

1 Like
34

Possible to do but technically more complex. We need to take it step by step

First, split the dapps into 2 sections. One is fully integrated and the other is onboarding.

After that, we can take the next step to enhance. Voting needs governance which will take time to develop.

In the future, having governance to decide on which dapp qualify for the dapp store listing can also be done.

35

There are already some websites that track TVL or fees on popular apps and rank them. For example:

2 Likes
37

I agree. I think that Dapps should give kickback in their own token (or NFT) not in SDN or Astar. That is how good apps would be separated from bad apps and that would be fair game. Volume of staked tokens would be desereved by quality of project not by amount of SDN they give for kickback.

4 Likes
38

A lot of great ideas here. I mostly agree with Sotaā€™s proposition but it can still be improved by reading this thead.

One idea I have not seen yet though. Instead of stakers staking individually for each project, you should built a vault. Everyone stakes in a giant vault that allocates SDN to each dAPP based on a formula taking into account metrics like TVL, # transactions, #users, ā€¦
All users receive compounding staking rewards based on their ratio of the vault.

This solution eliminates all manipulations related to kickbacks from the DEVs side and offer seamless compounding to nominators. Besides, all stakers will received the same APY. A small percentage could be kicked back to the treasury to make up for lost transactions (manual restaking).

Once governance kicks off we should be able to vote to adjust those different parameters when needed.

To sum up, withdraw individual choice for a more long term oriented, algorithmically driven, community approach.

This approach also for a real decentralization as any app could list in the store but only those who meet some minimum requirements would get rewards. Same goes for spamming, visibility will be relative to the dapp score.

These scores could also be used to set up different tiers.
For instance:
Tier 1: monthly averages: $1M TVL, 1000 daily users, 5000 daily transactions
Tier 2: monthly averages: $10M TVL, 10000 daily users, 50000 daily transactions
Tier 3: monthly averages: $100M TVL, 100000 daily users, 500000 daily transactions
and so on.
If a dapp meets tier1 criteria for the month, letā€™s say 10% of the accrued rewards can be claimed. Tier 2: 50% and Tier 3: 100% (just an example, it should be more granular).

Dapp developers who need funds to build should apply for a grant voted by the community based on the project pitch and committed milestones.

As for staking being a mean to support a particular Dapp, with this approach, the only way to support a protocol/project would be to actually use it :wink:

4 Likes
39

Would like to follow on thisā€¦

Will there be any changes to limit Dapps who is doing free riding ?

Seems like for the price movements there is an entity that constantly have fresh sdn to sell.

I hope Dapps developer is trying just to get into the Dapps staking to get free moneyā€¦

2 Likes
40

Is there any proof that dApp developer is selling SDN tokens? And it is okay dApp developers sell tokens because this is the original intention. Bitcoin minders and Ethereum miners also sell BTC and ETH.

I know the selling pressure is strong. I think this pressure comes from lockdrop token holders.

4 Likes
41

Definitely I got no proof on that as Iā€™m not sure how to investigate the movementā€¦

But looking at how the price action goes. Every 3 or 4 daysā€¦ there will be slightly more sell pressureā€¦ and aftershockā€¦ its back to ranging again. And 3 or 4 days the sell pressure increaseā€¦ and after whichā€¦ its back to rangingā€¦

Definitely selling is ok for Dapps developersā€¦ but at this moment when there isnā€™t a buying pressure, the price will keep going downā€¦ and new investors will be more cautions in coming in.

1 Like
42

Is there any diagram that proofs your assumption? It would be great if you could teach me the evidence. I think our community decisions should not be based on assumptions. We need numbers to change the current mechanism.

The less buying pressure is because of the small number of dApps at this moment. This is going to be a long journey and we need to invite more dApps and increase TVL.

3 Likes
43

Let me see if I can provide numbers. But of cosā€¦ this is my own assumption. But I couldnā€™t think of any other reason why such a price movement. And definitely Iā€™ve also considered times where btc is on the down turn, and Iā€™ve excluded those events as price of alts would definitely follow BTC.

I do agree with you on the current situation in regards to lower number of Dapps. ā€¦ thus in another threadā€¦ was suggestingā€¦ the following break down of rewards.

  1. 25% dapps developers
  2. 25% treasury
  3. 50% nominator.

But when more dapps is on board. We can go back to

  1. 50% dapps developers
  2. 50 nominator

When even more dapps is on boardā€¦ we can go back to the initial planned

  1. 80% dapps developers
  2. 20% nominator.

Reason why I suggest to include the treasury itā€™s due to the fact where I do not want nominators getting too much rewards where they became the ones to sell the rewards.